In short, a group of furs got jumped by a pair of gay-bashers of the second-worst type, and two physically assaulted. If you live in or near the Bellevue, WA (Washington State, USA for out-of-USAers) or even in nearby states, please read the link, and post a note there if you see anything to help.9 commentsLeave a comment
banner - 07:43 pm
This is why I believe in concealed handgun permits. Especially in what was SkinHead Central only a few years ago.
wolfwings - 09:00 pm - Myself as well.
If it's nothing but fists, I honestly believe that a handgun is only going to make things worse, but if it's already escalated to the point of physical objects, a handgun is a good idea, though a shotgun tends to get everyone's attention even more, and has less of a chance of going through a neighbors house when you miss, if you have to actually fire. Not if, missing is never an if with a handgun in a high-adrenaline situation unless you've been trained and lived through similair repeatedly.
But more than that, a handgun is only useful in an open area when you have range on the attacker. It's still relatively useless against someone wrestling a friend to the ground and clubbing them. The intimidation factor is grand, but it's still a very high-stakes risk. A common garden rake is almost as effective most of the time, and more effective to 'untangle' a wrestling match, while being a much lower-stakes raise in the betting.
As a note, this is coming from someone who's a staunch believer in making handguns MORE accessable, not less. I'd rather every last single thug is second-guessing themselves if someone has a handgun or not hidden in their back pocket or if it's just their wallet, than a single incident like this happen. I just know that even a handgun has distinct weaknesses, such as when you don't have range OR a distinctly seperate attacker to target.
lionman - 02:44 am - Re: Myself as well.
I think in situations like this, the cell phone is your best friend. The police would be happy to come see you, even if you just -think- you're gonna be in trouble. And I suspect, for general situations like this, defending oneself with equal force is the better action.
This sounds like it was 2 on 5. I would have thought we'd have faired better. :-/ Then again, I suppose not many furries are known for being well armed, or focused on self defense. Perhaps some simple self-defense courses would be useful at regular conventions? Hrm...or not.
banner - 04:24 am - Re: Myself as well.
I can easily kill a person with my bare hands. So saying, 'if it's nothing but fists' is a meaningless statement. It really comes down to this: You're an adult, if another adult choses to attack you, you should do whatever it takes to defend yourself.
As for handguns in the open, handguns are specifically made for close combat. The are small, easily wielded, easily pointed, and unless you have some huge overly powered one, are not going to go thru a house wall. They're just not that powerful, nor do they go that far. And it is only high risk for the assailant, once you pull it, because they're the ones who will be shot.
And of course if you carry it, you should be trained in it's use. Otherwise it is worthless. However I would like to point out that 2 million people annually use handguns to defend themselves in this country. Also notice that the guys only left when a gun was mentioned. Lastly notice also that thought the guys were outnumbered, they were still winning this fight and none of the victums picked up so much as a tire iron, which does take more skill to wield in a fight than a handgun.
wolfwings - 10:02 am - Re: Myself as well.
In this specific circumstance, right from the get-go I agree that a handgun would have been a glorious idea. As for your hands being a lethal weapon, I agree with that too, there's numerous places that are extremely easy to kill someone with, with nothing more than ones bare hands. I think my 'warning against handguns' came off as overly-strong. A lightning-fast 'get a gun' response is one I tend to temper slightly with some of the downsides of firearms ownership, as guns of any sort are not a cure-all, though they are an incredibly effective deterent, and used very, VERY effectively every single day in self-defense. =^.^=
In my experience and upbringing, most handguns with any real 'stopping power' against an ready-to-go attacker like these skinheads sounded like are able to blow through a window or the covered-drywall construction most houses use these days with ease, still keeping enough power to maim or kill afterwards. Solid-wood-frame houses are another matter, but as a general point in a city I've been taught to worry about my next-door-neighbor's that may or may not be behind the attackers, as much as any of my friends.
Light-weight handguns, like a 22, will wound, but it takes noticably more rounds to actually stop someone with, from talking to friends when I lived in south Ontario and other locations, where learning what was safe to hide behind (telephone poles and brick walls) and what wasn't (phone boxes and car doors) came with the territory. The native-american and civil-war conflicts of our own nation are filled with similair annecdotes.
And yes, handguns are made for much closer-range use than, say, a shotgun or rifle. But they're still almost useless as soon as grappling occurs, unless you're used to shooting under pressure or have some medical condition to prevent the adrenaline surge from kicking in. Again, this is all in my own experience. There's honestly quite a few people that have no problem with it, but there's quite a few that DO have this specific problem. Just like seeing the elephant in combat, nobody knows what their actual reaction will be until it happens.
And what I meant by 'high risk' was something I learned, again, from places like Ontario, and from numerous security guards I've spoken with and know. Many times, guys like that are willing to go toe-to-toe with someone, punching and kicking and EXPECTING to get beat up in return, wanting a fight or scrab. They may have a gun themselves, and never even consider drawing it... until someone else actually draws one. "8 Mile" actually illustrates this quite well IMHO at one point, if you've seen that movie. This wasn't such a circumstance, a nightstick came out from the get-go, it's above the simple fistacuffs already, handguns are warrented and proper.
As I said, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool supporter of everyone owning a handgun and being allowed to concealed carry, both with as little paperwork as possible. I've just seen the mistakes that can happen, so have found that some lower-end things can work just as effectively in most circumstances.
banner - 09:51 am - Re: Myself as well.
Just a few notes.
1) handguns with real stopping power.
That all comes down to what you know. A 22 doesn't really have any stopping power to speak of. HOWEVER, I can show you higher caliber rounds that will drop the most drugged up addict in the world on the spot, but won't penitrate a house wall. (Pre-fragmented anti-personel rounds for example. Yes you can buy these).
The idea of the gun is that you shoot them before they get that close. Once you pull it, if they take just ONE more step towards you, you start pulling the trigger and you don't stop until they are dead, and you are out of bullets.
3) knowing what you'll do in combat
Train train train train. Train like you fight and you'll fight like you train. I know this from personal experiance (I used to teach martial arts at an academy).
4) people looking for fights win or lose
Yes, these people do exist. But they usually don't pick up weapons, they tend to go to 'fight bars' (Yes, these places DO EXIST! You just have to know how to find them). These guys were cowards, plain and simple. They wanted to beat some other people into the dirt to make themselves feel strong and virile. As SOON as they see that they might get really hurt, they run. Just the sight of a gun would have ended this before it began.
wolfwings - 02:35 pm - Re: Myself as well.
Point 1: True. Point 2: True. Point 3: True. Point 4: True.
The problem is, most guns come with slug ammo, not flechette or pre-frag. And most people don't even know the other two exist, or that they're legal for almost anyone to purchase.
Again, I agree with you on all points. But firearms take just as much training as any other form of self-defense, while most people view them as an instant cure-all like Prozac and it's siblings are for ones emotions. :-)
And I agree. If you pull a gun, and they do any movement except away from you or straight down face-first onto the ground (depending on what you said) the bullets start going off. Not into the air, not into the ground by their feet, at them. You pulled the trump card, be prepared to play it if they called your bluff, or don't play high-stakes like that.
lionman - 02:41 am - Concealed Carry.
Sometimes I wonder if a non-concealed weapon would slow people down in situations like this. If you've got it concealed, then guys like this are likely to not think about it. I'm of a mixed opinion about it. However, if my state had a permit for concealed carry, I'd have one.
banner - 04:27 am - Re: Concealed Carry.
Sadly many states will not allow open carry (even though it's in the US constitution!). The advantage of concealed carry however it clear: If enough people carry concealed, criminals never know for sure who is carrying and who is not. I have seen this demonstrated personally, in public, several times.